August 24, 2023
This week, Academy Award-winning director Guy Nattiv discusses his new film 'Golda,' which follows the journey of Israeli Prime Minister Golda Meir as she navigates the tense 19 days of the 1973 Yom Kippur War. Nattiv delves into how Helen Mirren, who portrays Golda Meir, expertly embodied the role. He also shares why, being a child of '73, he felt so compelled to tell this story. Tune in to hear the poignant anecdotes from the set and learn about the involvement of war veterans in the filmmaking process.
*The views and opinions expressed by guests do not necessarily reflect the views or position of AJC.
Episode Lineup:
- (0:40) Guy Nattiv
Show Notes:
Watch:
- ‘Golda’ opens in US theaters starting August 25th from Bleecker Street / ShivHans pictures–find theater and ticket information at www.goldafilm.com
Read:
Listen:
- Matti Friedman on How the 1973 Yom Kippur War Impacted Leonard Cohen and What It Means Today
- The Rise of Germany’s Far-Right Party and What It Means for German Jews
- AJC Archives
Follow People of the Pod on your favorite podcast app, and learn more at AJC.org/PeopleofthePod
You can reach us at: peopleofthepod@ajc.org
If you’ve enjoyed this episode, please be sure to tell your friends, tag us on social media with #PeopleofthePod, and hop onto Apple Podcasts to rate us and write a review, to help more listeners find us.
Transcript of Interview with Guy Nattiv:
Golda Meir [from AJC Archives]:
We’ve suffered because of our stance, which is not just obstinacy, not just because we liked it this way. But I think it has been accepted more and more that we have something at stake, and that’s our very existence. Whether the borders are such that we can defend them or not, is a question of to be or not to be.
Manya Brachear Pashman:
That's the late Prime Minister of Israel Golda Meir speaking with AJC about fighting wars to defend Israel's existence. The movie Golda premiering in American theaters this week tells the story of one such battle: the Yom Kippur War of 1973 when Egypt and Syria launched a surprise attack against the Jewish state. Here to talk about the movie and why it's an important story to share with the world, especially through Golda Meir's eyes is its Academy Award winning Director Guy Nattiv. Guy, welcome to People of the Pod.
Guy Nattiv:
Hi, Manya.
Manya Brachear Pashman:
So Guy, as we just heard from Golda Meir herself, Israel has been defending its very existence since its creation, in war after war after war. Why did you want to direct a film about this particular war, which turned out to be quite a turbulent moment in the life of the Jewish state?
Guy Nattiv:
Well, I was born into this world, in a way. I'm a child of '73. My mom ran to the shelter with me as a baby, my father went to the war. And I grew up on those stories, of Golda, of the war, and I really wanted to know more, but there wasn't any way of knowing more. And I think that 10 years ago, protocols came out and gave a sense of what really happened, protocols from the Agranat Committee, from the war rooms, from the government. All those declassified documents. And that shed a different light on what really happened there, and on Golda. And doing the research on Golda and talking to people who really knew her, gave me a sense of why we needed to tell the story. It's for my generation and for the generation of my fathers’ and mothers’.
Manya Brachear Pashman:
So who made the decision to cast Helen Mirren as Golda Meir?
Guy Nattiv:
I wasn't the one who cast Helen. When I came on board, Helen was already attached. I think that Gideon Meir, the grandson [of Golda], he was the one who thought about Helen first, he said, I see my grandmother in her. And when I came she already read the script, and it was only meeting me to close the circle.
Manya Brachear Pashman:
And what did she bring to the role?
Guy Nattiv:
Humor, humanity, wisdom, charm. It's all there. But she brings a lot of human depth to the character.
Manya Brachear Pashman:
Were there conversations off camera during the making of the film about Israel, about its history, about the lessons learned in this moment in its history, with Helen Mirren, or other cast members?
Guy Nattiv:
Yeah, but the problem is that we don't really learn, right, because look what happened now in Israel. It's the Yom Kippur of democracy. So I don't think we learned enough. Where we are basically in the same situation, as '73, with a leader that is so disattached. At least Golda believed in the judicial system, she believed in High Courts, she was a humanist. She believed in democracy, full democracy. And I think the situation now is so dire. And when I went to protest in Israel, I went to protest with a lot of veterans from the war, who had the t-shirt 'This is the Yom Kippur of democracy.' We're fighting, they're almost fighting again, but this time not because of our enemies, because of ourselves. We're eating ourselves from within.
Manya Brachear Pashman:
I'm glad you mentioned the veterans of the war because this was such a painful conflict for Israel. Such a tragic blow to the nation’s psyche. More than 2,600 Israeli soldiers were killed, 12,000 injured, nearly 300 taken prisoner. What do you believe this film offers those veterans?
Guy Nattiv:
I think it brings a lot of humanity to Golda, who they saw as just the poster, as just a stamp, as just a statue, right? She was somebody who's not human. And I thought that Helen in the way that the film is structured is bringing Golda in a human way. And they see her struggle. And how she cared about those veterans. How she cared about every single person, every single soldier that died in this war. She wrote every name. She took it to her heart. And I thought that was something that veterans would respect. And also what I did is, when I edited the film, I brought five veterans from the front, a lot of them watched the movie in the first cut, the really first offline cut, and they helped me shape the narratives and bring their own perspective to this movie. So I thought that was very cool.
Manya Brachear Pashman:
You've made it clear that this is not a biopic about Golda Meir. This is really about this moment in history.
Guy Nattiv:
No, it's not your classical biopic, if you want to do a biopic about Golda Meir, you'll have to have a miniseries with eight episodes or more. This is an hour and a half, on a very specific magnifying glass on the requiem of a country. The requiem of a leader. The last of Golda. The last days.
Manya Brachear Pashman:
Let’s listen to a clip from the film that really shows why Golda Meir was known as the Iron Lady of Israeli politics. Here’s Helen Mirren as Golda Meir, sitting across the table from Henry Kissinger, played by actor Liev Schreiber.
Clip from ‘Golda’:
Golda Meir (portrayed by Helen Mirren):
This country's traumatized. My generals are begging me to occupy Cairo. And Sharon is, is like a dog on a leash.
Henry Kissinger (portrayed by Liev Schreiber):
If you do that you will be on your own. Israel's long term interests will not be served by a fracturing of our relationship, Golda. Sadat has already agreed to the terms of the ceasefire.
Golda Meir (portrayed by Helen Mirren):
Of course he has. He's on the brink of defeat. It will give him a chance to regroup. You are the only person in the world who could possibly understand what I'm going through.
Henry Kissinger (portrayed by Liev Schreiber):
Yes, I know how you feel, but we need a ceasefire.
Golda Meir (portrayed by Helen Mirren):
I thought we were friends, Henry.
Henry Kissinger (portrayed by Liev Schreiber):
We will always protect Israel.
Golda Meir (portrayed by Helen Mirren):
Like you did in ‘48? We had to get our weapons from Stalin. Stalin. Our survival is not in your gift. If we have to, we will fight alone.
Manya Brachear Pashman:
So Guy, what would you include in a mini series, if you produced a mini-series instead?
Guy Nattiv:
I would go to her childhood in Ukraine, probably, I would show her family in Israel. I would show more of her relationship with Lou Kedar, they were really close, her assistant. There's a lot of things that I would do, but not in the format of a feature. Although if you want to do something like you know, a four and a half hour feature, like, used to be in the 80s or the 70s. They were massive, like Gone With the Wind. This is something else. But this is not this movie. This movie is really a specific time in history.
Manya Brachear Pashman:
Through her eyes, basically.
Guy Nattiv:
Through her eyes.
Manya Brachear Pashman:
Yeah.
Guy Nattiv:
Under her skin.
Manya Brachear Pashman:
I'm curious, if in the making of the film, there were any kind of surprising revelations about cast members or their perspectives, their opinions, or revelations about the history itself.
Guy Nattiv:
One of the guys that was a stand-in, he was an extra in the movie. He was at the table of all the ministers. Ephri, Ephraim, his name is. I played the siren in the room. So everybody will get the siren, and the long siren. And he started crying. And he said, I'm sorry, I cannot really stay here for long. And I asked him, why not? He said, because I'm a veteran of the war. I was 21 when I went to the tunnel, and I fought. And he lives in the UK. And we shot the film in the UK and he came and it was amazing. And he came to Helen and me and he showed us photos of him as a 21 year old from the war. It was very emotional, it was surprising, he's only this extra. Who is a war veteran, who's playing a Minister.
Manya Brachear Pashman:
Wow. Did he explain why he tried out, or auditioned to be an extra, why he wanted to do this?
Guy Nattiv:
He’s doing a lot of extra work in the UK. You know, he moved to the UK and is an extra in a lot of movies. And when he saw that this movie exists, he said, I must come, I must be one of those ministers. And we needed a desk full of ministers, you know, and he was the right age. So he's just an extra. That's what he does. I don't know if he thought that he would be in the same situation. I don't think that he thought that. Because he didn't read the script. It was a very emotional moment. And a very emotional moment for Helen.
Manya Brachear Pashman:
So this was filmed in the UK?
Guy Nattiv:
It was filmed in an Indian School, outside of London. The Indian abandoned school that was basically huge, like, massive. Arad Sawat, who is my production designer, he basically created the entire kiriya [campus/city], and war room and all the bunker and Golda's kitchen, he built it from scratch, exactly like it was in Israel. And it was crazy. It's just like walking into the 70s. Me, as a grown up, you know, and seeing Helen as Golda. And the commanders. It was surreal. Just surreal.
Manya Brachear Pashman:
And how did you gather those kinds of personal details about her life? In other words, like, did you have pictures, plenty of photo photographs to base that on?
Guy Nattiv:
My two sources were Adam, her bodyguard, that gave me all the information, and her press secretary, who's 91, who told me everything about her, and books that were available for us, and protocols. It was very specific protocols that showed us how everything went down.
Manya Brachear Pashman:
Did Helen spend a lot of time with those people as well to really get a sense, and I'm curious how else she prepared, if you know, how else she prepared for this role, to really embody the former prime minister?
Guy Nattiv:
It was her own private process. I didn't get into it so much. But I think that she read all the books. She worked with a dialect coach to understand how the Milwaukee accent, to talk in the Milwaukee accent. Walk the walk. I think she prepared also with an animal coach. There's a coach, every actor becomes, every role it's a different animal. And you behave like this animal. You take the physiques of this animal. I think she was a turtle. I think that Golda was more of a turtle. The way she spoke. Everything was so slow. So I think that she became, she did, the way she carried herself like a ship into this. So it was a lot of metaphors, a lot of stuff, a lot of tools that help actors get into the role. But when I met her, and that was after like three and a half months we didn't talk, she was Golda. It's almost like she got into the trailer as Helen and she came out as Golda. We didn’t see Helen, we saw Golda. Even when we spoke and we ate lunch with her, we saw Golda. And so at the end of the 37 days of shooting, I was like, you know, I don't remember how you look like, Helen. And only in Berlin Film Festival, when she gave us Helen Mirren, is where we really saw her.
Manya Brachear Pashman:
So you mentioned Berlin, the film has premiered there in Berlin, also has premiered in Israel. I'm curious how audiences have received it in both places. Has it hit different chords in different countries?
Guy Nattiv:
When non Jews see the movie, I mean, they have lack of emotional baggage. And they see it as something foreign in a way. But for Jews, for Israelis, there's a lot of emotional aspects to it. So it's, yeah, it's different. It's a different view. But a lot of people that are not Jews are still really like, this is such an interesting, we didn't even know about her. You know, a lot of people are learning who she was. And they didn't know. It's like she paved the way to Margaret Thatcher. And to Angela Merkel. So they see now what's the origin of that.
Manya Brachear Pashman:
That's a really wonderful point, it being filmed in the UK and premiering in Berlin.
Guy Nattiv:
[Angela] Merkel said that Golda was her inspiration.
Manya Brachear Pashman:
So how do you expect it to resonate here in the United States?
Guy Nattiv:
I really feel that it's just starting out right now, we had an Academy screening, and I'm getting amazing text messages from people from that generation. But I also would love for younger generation to know about that and explore Golda. Yeah, I mean, I'm interested to know, to see how it is. But I know that it's very emotional for the Jewish community. I can feel that.
Manya Brachear Pashman:
Do you think this film will change how people view Golda Meir and Israel’s leaders in general?
Guy Nattiv:
I hope it will spark a nerve in a way that we are in the same situation now. And people will see that history repeats itself, in a way. It's not the same exact situation. But it's the blindness that our leaders are in right now. And I hope it will bring a different narrative to the character of Golda, and who she was, not just the poster, not just the scapegoat. Because she was the scapegoat of this war. It was easy to blame her for all the faults of her commanders and all the other human intelligence commanders and what happened there. But it's just, she's not the only one. She's not the scapegoat. She was actually very valuable for Israel, because she brought the shipments from the state, of the planes and the weapons. She was in charge of it. And I think without that, we would probably find ourselves in a different situation.
Manya Brachear Pashman:
Golda was the first female head of government in the Middle East. Do you think her gender had something to do with her being blamed or the being labeled the scapegoat, as you said?
Guy Nattiv:
Absolutely. Absolutely. I truly believe that with more female leaders in this world, the world will be a better place. I feel that men proved us wrong. You know, I want to see Tzipi Livni leading Israel again. I want to see more women in key roles and leading countries. I think the world would be a better place.
Manya Brachear Pashman:
Guy, thank you so much. Really appreciate you sitting down with us.
Guy Nattiv:
Thank you.
